Vatican II reforms at the center of SSPX talks

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Comments: 19

Cardinal Christoph Schonborn

Paris, France, Sep 17, 2009 / 06:05 am (CNA).- Cardinal Christoph Schonborn has said that the breakaway Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) must assent to the non-negotiable reforms of the Second Vatican Council concerning religious freedom and interreligious relations with other Christians, with Jews and with other non-Christians.

Speaking with the German daily Passauer Neue Presse, the cardinal reported that negotiations between a Vatican commission and the SSPX will begin “in the next few days.”

However, a later report from Zenit said the talks will begin in the third week of October.

Speaking to Passauer Neue Presse, the cardinal said that Rome will not “let the Lefebvrists off easy for everything.”

Cardinal Schonborn, who is Archbishop of Vienna, referred to the group by the name of their founder, Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, who broke communion with Rome in 1988 when he illicitly ordained four bishops. The breakaway group disputes some of the teachings of the Second Vatican Council.

"The SSPX will be told very clearly what is not negotiable for the Holy See," the cardinal said. "This includes such fundamental conclusions of the Second Vatican Council as its positions on Judaism, other non-Christian religions, other Christian churches and on religious freedom as a basic human right."

In an attempt to reconcile with the SSPX, Pope Benedict XVI lifted the excommunication on the four bishops. One of the prelates, British-born Bishop Richard Williamson, became the center of controversy when it was revealed he made remarks minimizing Jewish suffering in the Holocaust.

Zenit reports that the Vatican negotiators include three theologians: Swiss Dominican Fr. Charles Morerod, German Jesuit Josef Becker and the vicar general of Opus Dei Fr. Ocariz Brana.

SSPX leader Bishop Bernard Fellay has hinted at minimal changes in the society’s interpretation of the Council, but other prelates have maintained the group’s rejection of the Council.

In June the SSPX disregarded Vatican warnings and ordained 21 new priests.

Comments: 19

Subscriber comments:

Published by: ThomJude
Philadelphia 11/25/2009 10:07 PM EST

Cardinal Schonborn is pretty much a Novus Ordo Protestant style Catholic, a prelate of the NewChurch with all its liturgical abuses, tacky/whacky hymns and watered down, utilitarian Liturgy. The NewChurch is a mess. No wonder the pwes are empty in most churches on Sunday, and no wonder Novus Ordo seminaries and convents are half full. Vaticann II changed evrything, and paved the way to: obscurity. Reform the reform NOW.

Published by: No to SSPX
USA 10/29/2009 12:48 PM EST

I had a terrible experience leaving the local SSPX chapel when I told them why I was leaving: The SSPX was unyielding about all things post-Vatican II and couldn't be truly willing to reconcile with Rome if they ordained new priests in spring against Vatican wishes. The people in charge at the chapel would not accept criticism of the SSPX, though they constantly criticized Rome. I was subject to verbal abuse and subtle threats unlike anything I have ever experienced. Nothing Christian about these folks. They are very, very narrow and exhibit cultish practices and behavior, at least at this chapel. My opinion is that they really don't care if Rome accepts them. They will just continue on as they have been. From personal observation, only if Rome comes to them and renounces Vatican II, and everything that has changed as a result, will they become reconciled.

Published by: Bill
USA 09/23/2009 09:17 PM EST

Even before 1988, the year when Archbishop Lefebvre consecrated Bishop Fellay, SSPX was already suffering persecution. Now, after the unjust "excommunication," Benedict XVI has lifted, I hope and pray that during the discussions with the Vatican, the SSPX will be uncompromising. As John Vennari says in his course "Vatican II and the Components of Liberal Cathololicism," At Vatican II, liberal Catholicism triumphed. That triumph explains the Novus Ordo Missae, the council's teaching about "religious liberty," collegiality, and today's religiously indifferentist, scandalous ecumenism. Saint Pius X, pray for us.

Published by: Joe
Atlanta/GA/USA 09/22/2009 06:37 PM EST

It is important to know where this cardinal stands. And no, folks, he most certainly does NOT speak for the Holy Father on this topic. You all better get that get that straight real quick. This pope is unpredictable... even when cardinals are predicting.

Published by: Francis
Wareham MA 09/22/2009 01:21 PM EST

We all have to Remember that Vatican II was not like the councils of Nicea, Florence, Trent and Vatican I; those counsels were DOGMATIC COUNSELS where Vatican II was a PASTORAL COUNSEL! Vatican II defined no Dogma, only reiterated past dogma in a murky and ambiguous fashion. The SSPX and all "Traditional" Catholics never stopped upholding and obeying the Ex Cathedra teachings of Our Lord, the Apostles, The fathers of the church, Popes, and the 20 Ecumenical Counsels before VII. Not Prosthelytizing the NonCatholics including the Jews is in direct violation of our Lords Command to "preach the Gospel to all the Nations"; not to mention EX CATHEDRA teachings of the Catholic church which Vatican II cannot change even though some of the "Bishops" at the council would have liked to. The post Vatican II hierarchy is, by what they teach (and don't teach) is basically in a state of apostasy; and it is very sad.

Published by: Warren Anderson
Victoria, BC, Canada 09/22/2009 11:51 AM EST

1. Everyone needs Christ - if jews (muslims, hindus) are saved it is because Christ ultimately saves them. In the meantime, let's give everyone the opportunity to meet Christ by being faithful and convincing witnesses. Let's keep inviting the whole world to embrace the Faith Christ Himself gave to the world: the Catholic Faith! 2. The liturgical abuses under Card. Schonborn's watch are truly scandalous. He would do well to better follow the lead of the Holy Father. 3. There is One Church and One Magisterium. The SSPX exists in an imperfect relationship with the Church. Dr. Guy has it right: "Cafeteria Catholics on the right are just as heretical, misguided or ignorant as those on the left." 4. Like Brian said: Ubi Petrus, ibi ecclesia.

Published by: Magistra bona
Oakland, CA, USA 09/22/2009 11:49 AM EST

So Tom, in Coeur d’Alene, no one can insert “negotiable” ideas into a discussion of which they are not a part. Only the CDF and the SSPX get to thrash this out. Card. Schoenborn IS a member of the CDF though not on the team doing the actual discussing. All cardinals are princes of the Church, bishops, and, therefore, are teachers of the faith wherever they find themselves. That’s why he can say something if he wants to. But only the Pope teaches infallibly on matters of faith and morals. Just as any council of the Church interprets the deposit of the faith given once and for all by Christ, eg. Nicea, Trent, and V-II, “unheard of..dogmas” are not their main business. And, these councils are comprised of churches in communion not out of communion. The SSPX has had its excommunications lifted, but full communion and the restoration of episcopal and priestly ministry remains to be conferred. They’re on the way, but they’re still out. Otherwise there'd be nothing to discuss. No one commenting has said anything to suggest that the Old Mass, or better yet, the Mass of 1962 has been abrogated. With B-16’s motu proprio and the Indult of John Paul II, the Tridentine Mass is anything but abrogated. The Trindentine Rite is pure, holy, and a part of the Church’s treasure. It rises above the controversies surrounding it and movements that would claim to be its only champions. Participating respectfully and honestly in a discussion is a Christian way forward.

Published by: Paul
NZ 09/20/2009 04:42 PM EST

I think Card Schonborn and his liberal mates are about to begin a regular diet of humble pie. He has nothing to do with these discussions except that the purpose of them, from Romes point of view, is to clarify the ambiguities of Vatican II in order to kerb the abuses that pelates like Schonborn have been foremost in imposing on the rest of us. He is a threatened man and this outburst is a desparate attempt to impose what little control he has left on the conservative theologians chosen to represent Rome in these discussion. I don't believe it to be any coincidence that immediately after this rant by Schonborn, The Holy Father preached, critisizing those who abuse their power for their own personal gain.

Published by: Jack
NY 09/19/2009 08:54 AM EST

The SSPX is not canonically recognized. The must come in full communion with Rome. If this happens, they will, in my opinion, be the force that will make the 1962 Mass more widespread throughout the Church. I will say this about salvation: Christ said "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life" John 14:6. Christ is the visible image of God. When we see Him, we see the Father. I don't liberal agendas that clergy in the Church can facilitate. We, in America should see that the Europeans live differently than we because they were under the grip of the Nazis. Europe has this scar and so it's much more deeper for those people. They are afraid of a repeat of the Holocaust or such demonic actions. We must remember that politics exists in the Church and amongst other religions when they meet and have dialogue. I, personally, know that it's good to meet and have a discussion. I always am firm in the FACT that Jesus Christ is the Lord and Savior. I will always profess that to anybody. I know someone who is Jewish at work and I always profess that Christ is God and that he is the One that is referred to in the Old Testament as the Savior that was promised by God through the prophets. The document Dominus Iesu affirms that Christ is the only way to the God. It does not water things down. Let's all pray that the Jews will accept Christ as well as Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and others. God made all of us and saved all of us because He loves us. I hope the SSPX will see this.

Published by: tom hollingsworth
Coeur d'Alene, ID 09/18/2009 01:14 PM EST

For Magistra bona's information: As you say, there are "non-negotiables," and you list a number of them accurately, e.g. The Virgin Birth, The Trinity, etc. But let's not start trying to insert arguably negotiable items into the non-negotiable mix, e.g "positions on Judaism," "other non-Christian religions" and "religious freedom as a basic human right." Please do not try to imply that this "Ecumenical Council," as you clearly indicate it to have been, can weave such heretofore unheard of Catholic dogmas out of whole cloth. And why, sir or madam, to you call the SSPX a "schismatic movement?" Were its bishops not reinstated, and their excommunications lifted? Has it not again been clearly set forth that the Old Mass was never abrograted? Demonstrating "docility and obedience," you write. In other words, why doesn't SSPX just roll over and submit to blatant errors, and pretend like the rest that they are, and have always been, part of the Church's ancient Magisterium?

Published by: Brian
Kentucky 09/18/2009 10:43 AM EST

+JMJ+ "Where there is Peter, there is the Church." Peter only has one boat. If you're not in Peter's boat, then you're not in the Church. All people in ONE boat are going in the same direction. If we have people going in TWO directions, we have TWO boats. If Peter's boat is apparently going in the wrong direction, there are two possibilities: 1) The appearance is not actually reality, and Peter's boat IS indeed going in the correct direction; 2) The boat going in the wrong direction isn't Peter's boat (namely because the man who is apparently Peter is not in reality – PETER). Let's quit trying to live in a fantasy world where there are two boats going in two directions with PETER being in the wrong boat. "I have prayed for thee, PETER that thy faith faileth thee not... and being ONCE converted, convert thy brethren." PETER is not converted, but CONVERTS. Whom are you trying to convert? PETER?

Published by: Dr. Guy Di
Chicago, illinois 09/18/2009 05:12 AM EST

Contrary to what Joe from Austin has "preached in error" - the SSPX can not be in line with the magesterium AND oppose the directive of the Holy Father. As for saying a Vatican Council can not go against past teaching like Trent, that is exactly what Trent did in response to the reformation. Cafeteria Catholics on the right are just as heritical,misguided or ignorant as those on the left.

Published by: JOE
AUSTIN,TX,USA 09/17/2009 08:25 PM EST

The sspx is in line with the catholic magesterium.There is no new magesterium!The pope nor a council can change the magesterium of the catholic faith they only may add to it.If vatican II go's against pasty teachings of the church and church councils like trent then it is wrong or the understanding is wrong.The sspx is right -truth dose not change in time -even to get along.

Published by: Robert
Chicago, Illinois 09/17/2009 07:24 PM EST

May we finally get an answer from Opus Dei about Milan's Banco Ambrosiano scandal in 1978, the mysterious death and first cremated Pope, John Paul I. Shouldn't the SSPX take the stance that when Roberto Calvi, " God's banker ", and his apparent suicide in London on June 28, 1982 are the cards shown to the World by those who want separation of Church and State, the SSPX will show theirs. Since the SSPX hasn't opted to commit a scandal, while the secret societies which somehow still claim an association by being members in Good Standing in Vatican II's code of canon law, is it any wonder that so many Sacred Ministers play dumb when it comes to defending the need for, and performing the actual public consecration of Russia only to the Immaculate Heart of Mary?

Published by: Chris Roberts
Mercer Island, WA 09/17/2009 06:11 PM EST

These SSPX types need to reconcile quickly or be cast out forever, for Christ promised to protect His Church through Peter. You either reconcile or be considered anathema. Cardinal Shoenborn should not hand this. He is an extreme liberal. I don't know how he could be a Dominican. The Bishops in Austria and Germany are extremely weak and they act morally and theologically like Protestants.

Published by: carl
charlotte, NC 09/17/2009 05:55 PM EST

the ridiculous belief that the jews don't need Christ and his Church for salvation is just feel-good post-holocaust nonsense. I for one am sick of hearing about it, and i think we need more courageous public figures like Bishop Williamson to start tearing down the dogmatic holocaust religion.

Published by: tom hollingsworth
Coeur d'Alene, ID 09/17/2009 02:54 PM EST

Who the heck is Cardinal Shonborn? And where does he get off setting the negotiating standard with SSPX leaders? Is he speaking on behalf of the Supreme Pontiff? Does his list of the non-negotiable items correspond to the same list compiled by the Holy Father, if, indeed, the Pope has done so? Sorry, but a mere cardinal speaking in this way does not impress me very much.

Published by: Magistra bona
Oakland, CA, USA 09/17/2009 11:08 AM EST

Rate: Regular

Ah, but there are some non-negotiables in the Faith: e.g., the Holy Trinity, the vigin birth of Christ, the Resurrection, etc. Francis' characterization of Cardinal Schoenborn's nature is an inaccurate representation of his true positions. No schismatic movement can trump an Ecumenical Council of the Church. The SSPX has an opportunity to demonstrate its docility and obedience. Other than that, it has no authority over the Magisterium of Holy Mother Church.

Published by: Francis
Wareham, MA 09/17/2009 06:30 AM EST

Rate: Very Good

Cardinal Schonborn should worry about his own schismatic nature (Balloon masses, The Jews don't need Christ and his Church for Salvation, etc)and the rest of his collapsing diocese in Vienna before casting stones on subjects he clearly knows nothing about and is not involved in. Sadly, Cardinal Schonborn and most of the Austrian/German Bishops are more protestant in their thinking than they are Catholic.

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