Interview and Joint Declaration of the Pope Paul VI
and the Patriarch of Constantinople Atenágoras I

Jerusalem - Interview of January 5, 1964

The Patriarch begins the interview in English.

The Pope says: I understand English but I do not speak it fluently

Athenágoras: Then we can speak in French.

Pablo VI: That will be easier for me... I want to express all my joy, my excitement. Truly I think that this is a moment we live in the presence of God.

A: I repeat, in the presence of God.

P: I do not have another thought than that of speaking with God while I speak with you. I am very well, your Holiness.

A: .... deeply touched. Tears come to my eyes.

P: And since it is truly a moment of God, one must live it with full intensity, complete truth, with a total desire to continue ahead (Athenágoras: .... on the path of God).

P:) Does your Holiness have any idea, any particular desire, to which I can correspond?

A: We have the same desire...

P: Thus it is, we are two roads that perhaps are going to meet.

A: We have the same desire. As soon as I read in the newspapers that you had decided to visit this country, immediately it occurred to me that we would meet here and I was sure I would receive, from your Holiness the answer. ... (Pablo VI: affirmative) affirmative, since I trust in your Holiness. I see it, I see it, without wanting to flatter you, in the writings of the apostles, I see it in the Letters of Saint Paul, of whom you take your name, I see it here, yes I see it.

P: I speak to you as a brother: know that I have the same confidence in you. I think that Providence chose you to continue this history

A: I think that the Providence chose you to open the road of your predecessor.

P: Providence chose us so that we can understand it.

A: Centuries were expecting this day, this great day... what a joy... in this small room. What joy there was in the Sepulchre, what joy there was in Golgotha, what joy on the road you walked yesterday. [the Way of the Cross]

P: I am in a way brimming with thoughts that will take time to settle themselves (smile) and to interpret this wealth of emotions I have in my spirit. But I want to take advantage of this moment to express the absolute loyalty with which I will always treat you with.

A: I feel the same way.

P: Never will I hide the truth from you.

A: I will always trust you.

P: I have not a single desire to disappoint you, to abuse your good will. I do not desire any other thing than to follow the way of God.

A: I have absolute confidence in Your Holiness. Absolute, absolute. I will always have confidence, I will always be on your side.

P: Not to make myself unworthy of it, now Your Holiness should know that I will pray every day for the Church and for the intentions that we have in common for her sake.

A: Given that we have this great moment, being together. Walking together. ... Seeing Your Holiness, to your Great Holiness sent by God, yes, the Bighearted Pope. Do you know how I call you? megalo-kardos, the Bighearted Pope.

P: We are small instruments

A: It is necessary to see things this way.

P: The smaller we are, better instruments we become, that is to say that the action of God may prevail (Athenágoras: prevail) and be the guide of all our actions. For my part, I live in docility, in the desire to be more obedient to the will of God, and to be toward you. Holiness, toward your brothers, toward your envirionment, the most comprehensive.

A: I believe it, even without asking, I believe it.

P: I know that it is difficult, I know that there are difficulties, that there is a psychology but I also know... (Athenágoras: on both sides), that there is a great righteousness and a desire to love God, to serve the cause of Jesus. It is in this that I trust.

A: In this I have confidence, together, together. ...

P: I do not know if this is the moment, but what is lacking, is to study (Athenágoras: to study) together or to appoint someone.

A: Yes, from both sides

P: I would like to know what are your Holiness’ thoughts, those of your Church regarding the constitution of the Church. It is the first step.

A: We will follow your opinions.

P: I will tell you what I believe to be the right thing, derived from the Gospel and from the will of God and authentic tradition. I will tell you if there are points that do not coincide with your idea of the constitution of the Church. ...

A: The same on my part.

P: We will discuss, we will seek to find the truth.

A: The same from our side and I am sure that we will always be together.

P: I hope, I think, that perhaps it will be easier than what we think. There are two or three points of doctrine in which we have evolved as we have progressed in their study that I would like to explain – if you consider it pertinent – to explain to your theologians, without putting in anything artificial nor accidental but plainly what we believe, the authentic thought (Athenágoras: in the love of Jesus). And another thing that seems secondary but that has its importance: everything refered to discipline, honor, prerogatives, I am more than willing to listen to what your Holiness believes is best.

A: The same on my part

P: No question of prestige, of supremacy besides the one that has been set by Christ; but regarding honors, privileges, nothing of that. Let’s see what Christ asks us and let each one of us take position but not with human parameters of priority, compliments, advantages, but of service.

A: How dear you are to me in the deepest part of my heart...!

Joint Declaration from Pope Paul VI and Ecumenical Patriarch Athenagoras I.
December 7, 1965

The declaration was read out on December 7, 1965 simultaneously at a public meeting of the Second Vatican Council in Rome and at a special ceremony in Istanbul. It addressed an exchange of excommunications between prominent ecclesiastics in the Roman see and the Patriarchate of Constantinople, commonly known as theGreat Schism of 1054. It did not end the schism but showed a desire for greater reconciliation between the two churches, represented by Pope Paul VI and Ecumenical Patriarch Athenagoras I.

1. Grateful to God, who mercifully favored them with a fraternal meeting at those holy places where the mystery of salvation was accomplished through the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and where the Church was born through the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras I have not lost sight of the determination each then felt to omit nothing thereafter which charity might inspire and which could facilitate the development of the fraternal relations thus taken up between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church of Constantinople. They are persuaded that in acting this way, they are responding to the call of that divine grace which today is leading the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church, as well as all Christians, to overcome their differences in order to be again "one" as the Lord Jesus asked of His Father for them.

2. Among the obstacles along the road of the development of these fraternal relations of confidence and esteem, there is the memory of the decisions, actions and painful incidents which in 1054 resulted in the sentence of excommunication leveled against the Patriarch Michael Cerularius and two other persons by the legate of the Roman See under the leadership of Cardinal Humbertus, legates who then became the object of a similar sentence pronounced by the patriarch and the Synod of Constantinople.

3. One cannot pretend that these events were not what they were during this very troubled period of history. Today, however, they have been judged more fairly and serenely. Thus it is important to recognize the excesses which accompanied them and later led to consequences which, insofar as we can judge, went much further than their authors had intended and foreseen. They had directed their censures against the persons concerned and not the Churches. These censures were not intended to break ecclesiastical communion between the Sees of Rome and Constantinople.

4. Since they are certain that they express the common desire for justice and the unanimous sentiment of charity which moves the faithful, and since they recall the command of the Lord: "If you are offering your gift at the altar, and there remember that your brethren has something against you, leave your gift before the altar and go first be reconciled to your brother" (Mt. 5.23-24), Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras I with his synod, in common agreement, declare that:

A. They regret the offensive words, the reproaches without foundation, and the reprehensible gestures which, on both sides, have marked or accompanied the sad events of this period.

B. They likewise regret and remove both from memory and from the midst of the Church the sentences of excommunication which followed these events, the memory of which has influenced actions up to our day and has hindered closer relations in charity; and they commit these excommunications to oblivion.

C. Finally, they deplore the preceding and later vexing events which, under the influence of various factors--among which, lack of understanding and mutual trust--eventually led to the effective rupture of ecclesiastical communion.

5. Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras I with his Synod realize that this gesture of justice and mutual pardon is not sufficient to end both old and more recent differences between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church.

Through the action of the Holy Spirit those differences will be overcome through cleansing of hearts, through regret for historical wrongs, and through an efficacious determination to arrive at a common understanding and expression of the faith of the Apostles and its demands.

They hope, nevertheless, that this act will be pleasing to God, who is prompt to pardon us when we pardon each other. They hope that the whole Christian world, especially the entire Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church will appreciate this gesture as an expression of a sincere desire shared in common for reconciliation, and as an invitation to follow out in a spirit of trust, esteem and mutual charity the dialogue which, with Gods help, will lead to living together again, for the greater good of souls and the coming of the kingdom of God, in that full communion of faith, fraternal accord and sacramental life which existed among them during the first thousand years of the life of the Church.