Q: I know you've probably been asked this a lot as well, but on the U.S. elections: I think many are anticipating that immigration is going to be a very big topic with this administration. You yourself have had conflicts with Pence about this in the past. Are you anticipating difficulty on this issue?
What I would say, and maybe this helps begin to answer your question, is that there were also a lot of things we cooperated on, and we worked very well together. We did have this disagreement about the question of barring Syrian immigrants from Indiana, and I think that probably in the aftermath, the courts have upheld the view that the archdiocese took, that we were actually following the law. But what I'm hoping is that the new administration will be interested in establishing a respectful dialogue with the bishops' conference. We don't govern the United States of America; there's a government that does that, but I think the government, in reaching decisions aimed at the common good, should at least take into account the experience of the Catholic Church and its leadership. And I think on the other hand, we have to be respectful of the government and we have to pray for those who govern us while being conscious of what the Gospel calls us to be today.
Q: Given the fact that there are going to be things we'll agree on and things we'll disagree on, in your opinion, what do you think are the greatest opportunities that we already have for cooperation with this administration, and what are the areas you think might be problematic?
Let me use an example of where I've defended governor Pence, because I think it might illustrate a response to your question. The government was criticized very often in the media in Indiana for presenting itself as a Christian, American conservative. And the media or the people who disagreed with him said 'you should present yourself only as an American.' And I would say in his defense, to believing people, that sounds idolatrous. That you would put something else above your relationship with God. So what I would hope the administration would understand is that as believing people, nothing can come above our relationship with God. It's a relationship that's not just lived inside the walls of the Church, a synagogue or a mosque. It means that we live in a certain way and we hold certain values as part of it. Now for the longest time in the history of the United States, those values and the values of the government or as the society at large were not as contradictory as they can be, or at least as they feel in these recent decades. So I think because of that we owe it not simply to our life of faith to be authentic, we owe it because our faith is something good we can give to the people of the United States and the people of the world. So hopefully we'll be able to cooperate with the new administration, and hopefully they will be open to listening to us and to the conclusions we've reached in our own life of faith.
Q: Turning to your appointment and the appointment of your brother cardinals, Cardinal Cupich and Cardinal Farrell, we were surprised to see that three Americans were named in this consistory. We expected one or two at most, but three was a surprise. Why do you think the Holy Father placed such an emphasis on Americans this time around?
Once again I'll have to let myself off the hook, because it would be really interesting to ask him! I think it's good for Americans to remember, as well established and as good as the Catholic Church is in the United States, in the global picture we're only six percent of the Church, so we're a really small little sliver and certainly I think, for better or for worse, we have a lot of opportunities to make a difference in the world and in the Church, but numerically, if that's what you're going by, we're rather small. I don't know why the Holy Father (did it). Maybe because some cardinals have retired in recent years – Cardinal McCarrick, Cardinal Mahoney, Cardinal Levada, and some have gone home to God, like my friend Cardinal Francis George. Perhaps he felt it was time to renew this particular ministry in the United States.
Q: I wanted to ask another follow-up question on the Pope's homily. He spoke about the importance of staying united and not falling into polarized attitudes. The Holy Father is obviously bringing it up for a reason, so in your opinion, where do you see this polarization in the Church, and how can it be overcome?
I think he's bringing it up because it's a reality. It's a reality because we live in a polarized world and there's always a risk that (believers) uncritically adopt in the Church some of the tendencies, if you will, in the wider world. I've seen that in my work in other countries, for example in Eastern Europe. People there had little use for communism and had real reasons to oppose it and criticize it and finally make it fall. But some of the shadow side of communism affected the people living there. This sort of distrust that characterized people in a sort of Soviet-state, passed into the Church. I would visit communities say in Ukraine, or Belarus, where the priest did not want to talk to me inside the house for fear of being overheard. Well, that's not the sort of confidence and trust we want to have in the body of Christ. I think coming back to the States after 20 years, I was a bit surprised at the degree to which the "red state, blue state" model has come into the Church, where we like to figure out a label we can put on somebody. So we'll ask questions like 'what do you read?' or 'what websites do you visit?' That's an important one for people. Because if I can figure it out, then I can put a label on you rather than saying 'oh you're a disciple of Jesus like me,' or 'I'm like you.' But it's rather 'are you a real one or not? Because I figure I am.' So I think that and the lack of dialogue at times in sort-of combative groups even within the Church, is another sign of this polarization the Holy Father was addressing. So I think the homily was beautiful because it was directed at real situations, and showing us just how important our work as cardinals would be, and addressing the polarization and providing an alternative to it.
Q: How do you think that can best be done?
The first encyclical Paul VI wrote during the Second Vatican Council was called Ecclesiam Suam, and among other things it proposed dialogue, not just as a nice way of talking with each other, but as a real way of loving each other and different characteristics of dialogue, of authentic dialogue, like meekness. I don't believe that I have a corner around all the truth, but (that) I can learn something by listening to you. Confidence that God doesn't want us to live in hermetically-sealed units. The ultimate mission is always the mission of Jesus from the heart of God. To do what? Well, to reconcile; we just heard it yesterday from the reading from Colossians. So I think that dialogue that is aimed at reconciliation is the greatest antidote to polarization.
Q: On the topic of dialogue, Pope Francis has been emphasizing the topic of dialogue and mercy a lot. In one of his interviews leading up to the close of the Jubilee, he spoke about how he sees it as the path of the Second Vatican Council moving forward, and that it takes a century to really unpack the fruits of it. Do you think that with this emphasis we're starting to see on dialogue, on stronger collaboration to pull away from these polarizations and the emphasis on mercy, are we perhaps starting to see some of the fruits of the Council?
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I think so. Certainly things coming out of the Council, once again referring to that encyclical, these are things Paul VI proposed, before you were born, in 1965, 1964. So it was out there, but I think it was always challenged too by these sort of centrifugal forces that fragment societies and threaten to fragment even the body of Christ. So you have a very good insight in that what the Holy Father is proposing, he didn't just dream up. It's part of, particularly, a great movement of the Holy Spirit, which was the Second Vatican Council. And if you look at the opening address of John XXIII, "Gaudet Mater Ecclesia," "Mother Church Rejoices," it's astounding to see. You say, my God, Francis could have written that. But it means that he's that much in tune with what's happening.
Q: So What Francis is doing isn't necessarily anything new?
No, no, no. It's as old as the Gospel. And it's as fresh as the challenges we face today.
Q: So do you think his emphasis on being open to the Holy Spirit is following the same path? That it's perhaps what we've seen before? He talks about his predecessors a lot, so we see his predecessors doing the same things, but is Francis just doing it with a fresh gaze?
Absolutely. This openness, what you're describing very well, is what goes by the fancy name of 'discernment.' I found it interesting in 2012, just the documents in preparing for the Synod on the New Evangelization, one of the preliminary documents mentioned the word discernment 24 times, so what it's saying is that our mission today isn't simply a recipe that we've had all along. What we have, we have to apply to the circumstances of today. And how do we do it? I think in that sense the Holy Father is following very closely to St. John Paul II and Benedict on the need for discernment, which is examining the signs and times and places in the light of faith.
Elise Harris was senior Rome correspondent for CNA from 2012 to 2018.